Wikidata:Property proposal/place of resident registration at death

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place of resident registration at death[edit]

Originally proposed at Wikidata:Property proposal/Person

   Not done
Descriptionthe place or administrative unit where the deceased person was registered as having his or her residence at the time of their death
Data typeItem
Domainhuman (Q5)
Allowed valuesinstance of, or instance of a subclass of, human settlement (Q486972) or administrative territorial entity (Q56061)
Example 1Gunnar Rönn (Q116273890)place of resident registration at death → Spånga-Kista församling (Q10676706)
Example 2Sven Lindegård (Q5954944)place of resident registration at death → Växjö domkyrkoförsamling (Q10718569)
Example 3Jan Arvid Hellström (Q3828508)place of resident registration at death → Växjö domkyrkoförsamling (Q10718569)
Example 4Hans Rosengren (Q21759275)place of resident registration at death → Karlstad church parish (Q10543924)
See alsoplace of death (P20)
Type constraint – subclass ofhuman settlement (Q486972) or administrative territorial entity (Q56061)
Single-value constraintyes

Motivation[edit]

In many countries, including my country Sweden, the current place of residence of all people living in the country is registered by the government, and this information is kept up to date (it is mandatory to notify the government when you move). An effect of this system is that ”place of death” is recorded as the place where a person was registered when the person died. The officially registered place of death is often misleading, when a person was a registered resident in one district, and died somewhere else, perhaps under circumstances that are important to the biography of the person. This is a problem when information is taken automatically from Wikidata to an infobox (which is often the case on e.g. Swedish-language Wikipedia). For countries such as Sweden, we need the property ”place of resident registration at death”.

The intention is to make it possible to include in Wikidata both ”place of death (P20)” and ”place of resident registration at death (P????)” for persons who have died in countries such as Sweden.

Potentially this could be important to thousands of articles with biographical infoboxes. Jan Arvid Götesson (talk) 00:26, 25 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion[edit]

  •  Support This is the value that usually is mentioned in sources.  – The preceding unsigned comment was added by Esquilo (talk • contribs) at 09:00, January 25, 2023‎ (UTC).
  • is there a difference between place of resident registration instead of just place of residence at death? we already have a property for the latter. BrokenSegue (talk) 22:17, 25 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    also can you not come up with more than one example? if you can't provide more than one example then I don't think we should make this property. BrokenSegue (talk) 05:10, 26 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    @BrokenSegue Do we have a property like that? I cannot find it. Could you please do us the favor and link it? Ainali (talk) 08:22, 26 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Maybe residence (P551) in combination with the qualifier end cause (P1534). The value death (Q4) and or death of subject (Q99521170) seem to be the most used values for that particular combination, see the following SPARQL question:
    However, a person may simultaneously have several residence (P551) but, at least in Sweden, only one "resident registration" for each point in time.
    -- Larske (talk) 16:20, 26 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I meant we can use place of residence at time of death as the qualifier. I'm not sure what it means to have a registered place of residence. I don't think that's a thing in the US. BrokenSegue (talk) 18:42, 26 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    There is an article, Resident registration in English-Language Wikipedia explaining this. The article says: “A resident register is a government database which contains information on the current residence of persons. In countries where registration of residence is compulsory, the current place of residence must be reported to the registration office or the police within a few days after establishing a new residence.” “Neither the federal government of the United States nor any U.S. state has formal resident registration systems.” Roughly speaking, there are two different systems in the world, both centuries old. English-speaking countries have inherited the British tradition of not having resident registration. Before the advent of computers, resident registration was done manually on paper by government officials (in some countries with a state church it was done by clergy on behalf of the government). Jan Arvid Götesson (talk) 20:44, 26 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    BrokenSegue asked for more examples. I have added examples the differences between “place of death” and “place of resident registration at death” are important in the biographies of those people. The point is however that the majority of people, who live i countries that have the system of resident registration administered by the government, have a “place of resident registration at death” that is not their place of death, so thousands of biographical Wikidata objects would potentially benefit and become more informative and precise.
    Should we not instead add a "place of resident registration" property and then use the valid dates at time of death? BrokenSegue (talk) 22:57, 26 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    @BrokenSegue It kind of make sense, but I am afraid that it would be less used. First, it would be a tricky Lua call to get it to an info box. Also queriyng will be harder as it would require that it is exactly the same dates on date of death and the qualifier. Ainali (talk) 17:11, 27 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
 Comment dont we have this information in the sources as stated in (P248)? --> when we have a death date we can see that it is "stated in" eg. church death record (Q10478639) i.e. that is the book of the "place of resident registration" see e.g. Q7724#P20 the problem is that we dont have all the books as WD objects if we had that we could from the book understand "place of resident registration at death"
  • SPARQL every person at a cemetery with a source from a death book church death record (Q10478639) - SPARQL list / map
  • OT: I feel we should have Wikidata entries for every Swedish churchbook like August Strindbergs death book Adolf Fredriks kyrkoarkiv, Död- och begravningsböcker, SE/SSA/0001/F I/18 (1906-1916)
Salgo60 (talk) 15:41, 27 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
In Swedish I asked the Swedish National Archive what plans they have with linked data - something was promised in 2017 regarding churchbooks and linked data that I dont think they have delivered link. Question: Do we have examples from other countries about Linked data for churchbooks let me know - As the churchbooks are the official registration of a person then that would solve the problem... Salgo60 (talk) 14:30, 31 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Support Ainali (talk) 17:17, 27 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Oppose I think residence (P551) is enough, with qualifiers end cause (P1534) → death of subject (Q99521170) to indicathe that's the last residence until their death; and nature of statement (P5102) → de jure (Q132555) to indicate that's the value recognized by the legal system, without implying that was actually the real residence of the person. I would not use official (Q29509043) as value here, since it hasn't to be related with goverment records. --Tinker Bell ★ ♥ 09:29, 30 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
     Oppose I agree with Tinker Bell. P551 should do the job. ChristianKl ❪✉❫ 00:03, 31 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
     Oppose Using qualifiers is preferred over new properties. Infrastruktur (talk) 13:26, 31 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Note that in, for example, Sweden, official sources related to death does not state where their residence was, but just an administrative area where they were registered. In essence, since it is most common that place of death (P20) on Swedes are the parish where they were registered and should be removed (users have routinely added what the sources say, but on wrong property since no better exist), we would lose data about location and death for them. Ainali (talk) 21:25, 31 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    @Ainali: Sorry, I didn’t understand. What do you mean when you say we would lose data? Do you mean that we lose data because the actual place of death is often not written into P20 (people instead write “parish where registered at death” in p20), or do you mean it the other way round, that we lose information about “parish where registered at death” when people write actual place of death in p20?
    Another thing: you are right that in Sweden, ”official sources related to death does not state where their residence was, but just an administrative area where they were registered”. If we want to state the exact place of residence at death we would need to state the unique identifier of the property where the deceased had their address at death. However, since the parishes (now called distrikt) are so small in Sweden (typically 15 km by 15 km with a few thousand inhabitants), writing “parish where registered at death” in p20 gives quite an exact piece of information. If it is stated that persons were registered in the parishes of ”Katarina församling, Stockholm” and ”Älghults församling, Kronobergs län” at the time of their death, that information would be acceptable as values for a property called ”place of resident registration at death”, I think. Jan Arvid Götesson (talk) 12:03, 8 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    @Jan Arvid Götesson My point is that all parishes that are now on P20 really should be deleted as they are just plain wrong. And for these people we probably don't have any source on where they actually died. Hence we will lose data when deleting those. Ainali (talk) 13:09, 8 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    @Ainali: I understand. All parishes in P20 should be deleted, you say, which means we would end up with no data, because in many cases sources don’t say where a Swedish person died, only their parish of registration at death. That is why I ask for a solution so that both the piece of information ”place of death”, and the piece of information ”place of resident registration at death” can be entered into Wikidata, and automatically retrieved to Wikipedia. Because both those pieces of information are important in a person’s biography. And I think that parish (district) at death is sufficient if we want to state a person’s ”place of resident registration at death”. Parish is not as exact as the street adress or name of the property (”fastighet”), but people who died in the United States only have values such as ”Princeton” (Albert Einstein) in P20. Jan Arvid Götesson (talk) 13:54, 8 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
     Comment @Ainali: do you have any examples? Sweden is rather easy to track people compared to United States were you have census. In Sweden we had household books "Swedish household records (Q10527384)" that is a register often updated every year when the priest visited the houses in the church parish. When a person left the church parish or moved inside the church parish the persons record was striked through in the Swedish household records (Q10527384) and a date when he moved and a page number if he moved inside the church parish. If the person moved out (video 10 min) from the church parish he also was registered in a special book "Moving in and moving out records (Q64167115)" and in the parish he moved to they had a book of the persons that has moved in "Moving in and moving out records (Q64167115)" and then he also was registered in the Swedish household records (Q10527384) in the house he lived. When a person died his record was overstrikken in the Swedish household records (Q10527384) for the church parish and a death date was added PLUS he was added in another book church death record (Q10478639) also when persons died we have Estate inventories estate inventory (Q1777837) were they register all the items a persons owned, when he died and where he lived and family members (video Estate inventories)
- Salgo60 (talk) 00:37, 3 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘Important summary of alternative solutions. I made this proposal. My contribution to Wiki projects is only to write Wikipedia articles, which sometimes include infoboxes that automatically retrieve parameter values from Wikidata. I’m ignorant about Wikidata. I don’t understand the technical things, so I put this in layman’s words. To objective is to be able to have certain information in infoboxes, such as the infoboxes generated with the ”faktamall biografi WD” (English: Infobox person/Wikidata). The information in the infobox should be like this:

Johan Johansson Born 1 May 1920 Skirö parish, Sweden, Died 2 May 1980 (60 years) Oskarshamn Aiport, Sweden (place of residence at death Ryssby parish, Sweden)

If that can be achieved without introducing a property, that’s fine. If no new property is created, two other things must work:

  1. It must be possible (and not too difficult) to add the following information in Wikidata: that a person physically died at a certain place X, and the person’s place of residence at the time of death was Y. (This is relevant in countries where people’s places of residence – and every change in place of residence – are recorded by the government.)
  2. It must be possible to write templates (mallar in Swedish) so that they retrieve the Wikidata information, and the information is displayed in articles in the way I exemplified above: Johan Johansson was killed in a crash at an airport, but his place of residence was elsewhere.

If those things can be achieved without creating a new property, I would be happy with that. Jan Arvid Götesson (talk) 01:09, 8 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Esquilo@Ainali@BrokenSegue@ChristianKl@Infrastruktur@Larske@Salgo60@Tinker Bell: This discussion has come to an impasse. Since I know little about Wikidata (I am mainly a writer of Wikipedia articles) I would like to have a Yes/No answer to my question: If we do not create a new property, would it be easy to store the piece of information “place of resident registration at death” in Wikidata (perhaps using residence (P551), end cause (P1534) → death of subject (Q99521170), nature of statement (P5102) → de jure (Q132555) as suggested), and would it be easy to retrieve and display that information in an infobox in a biographical Wikipedia article using a template, side by side with the physical place of death in the same infobox? Thank you. Jan Arvid Götesson (talk) 22:32, 13 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Jan Arvid Götesson
1) As I stated you have it already in the source, example map of Swedish peoples graves with a coordinate AND with a reference from a church death record (Q10478639)
2) You get that information in the reference list in Wikipedia isnt that good enough see ref 4 sv:Oskar_Eklund
  • video trying to explain my point
- Salgo60 (talk) 22:53, 13 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Salgo60 Thank you for you answer. I am ignorant about technical things, and I must study the information you provide to understand it. Meanwhile, just to clarify, do you answer YES to my double question (the question being, can the information we have discussed easily be stored in Wikidata (and entered into Wikidata by people like me), and can it easily be retrieved from Wikidata and displayed in Wikipedia automatically? Jan Arvid Götesson (talk) 00:55, 14 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Jan Arvid Götesson
Example Gulli Petrini (Q4972683)
When I design solutions I create en:Use cases for different stakeholders exemple
1) As an user I would like to see the death records that states the persons death i,.e. the en:primary source. That I feel we have today with Wikidata and a Wikidata driven template like Template:Infobox person/Wikidata (Q17534637)
> can it easily be retrieved from Wikidata and displayed in Wikipedia
  • isnt it the record from the registration book people would like to find?
Maybe its easier if you call me +46-735152802
- Salgo60 (talk) 01:46, 14 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Jan Arvid Götesson In my opinion: No. And that's because the parishes we have is not where people are residing. I think it will, and should, cause a property constraint to give a warning if someone adds a parish as a value to that property. It's semantically not correct but would be squeezing the wrong kind of value in that field. That is why the suggestion that Tinker Bell, ChristianKl and Infrastruktur does not work and why their votes should be seen as invalid (as their counter suggestion is invalid). Ainali (talk) 17:50, 14 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Ainali I asked you above for examples for your "new constraints theory". I guess you speak about place of death (P20) as you understand Swedish what is the conclusion of the below sources? 
Född:1867-09-30 – Jakobs församling, Stockholms län
Död:1941-04-08 – Kungsholm eller Ulrika Eleonora, Stockholms län
  • the primary source church death record (Q10478639) --> Kungsholms kyrkoarkiv, Död- och begravningsböcker, SE/SSA/0011/F I/21 (1936-1942), bildid: 00026758_00225 page 251
    • Row 105 column 6 says her address Scheeleg. 13 and column 19 says in Swedish Dödsort = death location and on her row it says in Swedish at home I hemmet
Jan is this sources good for you that she has died and what is the correct location place of death (P20) a
    • what would you think is correct value in Wikidata?
    • your suggested constraints what should it warn for?
- Salgo60 (talk) 20:33, 14 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Ainali: Wikidata doesn't work in a way where the votes of people who disagree with how you think a property should be used are invalid.
Why do you believe that someone who is registered in a parish isn't a resident in that parish? ChristianKl ❪✉❫ 01:26, 15 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, they may very well have their residence in that parish. However, the property residence (P551) should not have parishes as value. None of neither the English nor Swedish aliases suggest that. And the property constraints does not seem to allow it either, which is inline with the name. If we change this, then that property should also change name as it's meaning changes. Ainali (talk) 16:02, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Ainali: Whether aliases suggest that is completely irrelevant. Aliases are not there to define the meaning of a property. If you look at the property description for residence, it's about where someone is a resident. If you think it should be renamed, feel free to bring that up on it's talk page. ChristianKl ❪✉❫ 21:26, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Ainali: For me a parish is just a location with less good precision... If we dont have better precision then a parish is better than nothing. I think the "challenge" is more how to define residence (P551) that works with todays possibilities i.e. in my my video can we define what apartment and what windows with direction to the street the person lived in. With Gulli Petrini (Q4972683) we have an WD object for the street Scheelegatan (Q10663209) which is a start but how do we develop the property so that we can tell its the window 3 on the third floor....
  • its ok with less good precision if we dont have better
  • how do we define residence (P551) with a better "precision" so it works with todays new possibilities with VR, AR I feel is the challenge more than we get objects with less good precision
@Jan Arvid Götesson: the suggestion place of resident registration' is useful if we should find the "official place" stating the fact but as said above maybe we already have this data in the sources - [my example map](https://w.wiki/6GYJ) of people in Sweden with a grave location AND an official registration in church death record (Q10478639)
- Salgo60 (talk) 07:17, 19 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Salgo60 While they may be that to you, this is not reflected through their "subclass of" tree in Wikidata. Ainali (talk) 09:42, 19 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@ChristianKl Sure, aliases does not define it. But what you seem to miss is that you cannot be a resident in one of these parishes any more than you can be a resident in a brand or a language. They are simply different types of items. Ainali (talk) 09:49, 19 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@AinaliThanks for your reply. I use examples to make things clear. If a Wikipedia article were written about me after I die registered in my house in Sweden, you suggest that my ”place of resident registration at death” would be ”Stationsvägen 6, Ingelstad, Östra Torsås distrikt, Sweden” or possibly ”Ingelstad 16:5, Östra Torsås distrikt, Växjö kommun, Sweden” if we use the name of the property instead of the street address. (I am now talking about real estate ”property”, not Wikidata ”property”.)
Do I understand correctly, or am I confused?
I originally thought that parish/district would be a close enough piece of information for ”place of resident registration at death”. My idea was that “Östra Torsås distrikt, Sweden” would be enough to state where my ”place of resident registration at death” would presumably be, because Östra Torsås distrikt is an area of only 10 km times 10 km. But I am happy with your suggestion that the actual address or property should be included. Jan Arvid Götesson (talk) 05:21, 15 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Agree that is my understanding the only odd thing with Swedish church Parishes is that we have a few of type non-territorial parishes (Q10533490) "formed independently of the geographical anchoring of the members" i.e. if we should do our homework we should maybe not use them for place of death (P20), we can see that the Swedish National Archive use e.g. The Royal Court Parish (Q10526665) see Claes Adolph Fleming (Q5733074) and SBL 14203
Död:1831-05-12 – Hovförsamlingen, Stockholms län
Which I would say is odd... I can ask the SBL people how they do today the above article was published 1966
  • Other user cases I can see that there is an interest to also in Wikidata have the street name and a coordinate of the "actual location" also in Wikidata
    • I see Google Map develop in direction that you use your phone to locate were you are on a street and what buildings you can see and then if you are on Scheelegatan 13 in Stockholm and are interested in historical people you should see that Gulli Petrini (Q4972683) died/lived on the street
      • maybe we need better support for pointing out a specific apartment/window from the street/name(identifier) of the apartment a person died in see my Scheelegatan movie
    • In Sweden we have a historical book scanning project Swedish Literature Bank (Q10567910) and they would like to point on a map were August Strindberg (Q7724) died and then the church parish is not good enough
- Salgo60 (talk) 06:02, 15 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
 Comment residence (P551) is can not be used as it is too precise, it refers to a residence (Q699405) rather than a administrative territorial entity (Q56061). So a new property needs to be created anyway, regardless if it is "place of resident registration at death" or just "place of resident registration" with the qualifier end cause (P1534) => death of subject (Q99521170). /ℇsquilo 11:27, 15 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@ℇsquilo: That claim is just straightforwardly wrong. If you look at the property examples of residence (P551), it has Zhongtian Mao (Q102317003) residence (P551) Zhenjiang (Q57958) where Zhenjiang (Q57958) is an administrative territorial entity (Q56061). Why not look at the actual property examples before making mistaken claims? ChristianKl ❪✉❫ 21:24, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@ChristianKl Zhenjiang (Q57958) is also an instance of big city (Q1549591). If it only was an administrative territorial unit, it would give a constraint warning. Did you look at the property constraints before making mistaken claims? Ainali (talk) 09:54, 19 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I did look at the constraints and they have geographic region (Q82794) which is described as "2D or 3D defined space on something, mainly in terrestrial and astrophysics sciences". "administrative territorial entity" do fit under that category: administrative territorial entity (Q56061)->human-geographic territorial entity (Q15642541)->territory (Q4835091)->geographic region (Q82794). Certainly, the Pariash that we are talking about are "2D defined spaces on earth". ChristianKl ❪✉❫ 14:31, 19 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
 Oppose. Not needed, use P551 with appropriate qualifiers. Maxime Ravel (talk) 05:37, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
And then with a note somewhere to not use place of death (Q18658526) when using church books as sources for details about someone’s death? (Or sources that, in turn, has used church books.) —Freso (talk) 12:36, 8 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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